Curse

darkMishkin · Oct 06, 2005, 01:08 AM // 01:08

I'm in love with hammers (for no good reason other than they're cool) and this thread is just depressing me!
The slower speed of my hammer makes a zealous bonus less attractive sure, but now I find out that Srength ArmorPen Bonus is only applied to skills, the speed of Addrenaline build up has really become a factor for me... cause hammer skills are so expensive anyway. And without a shield I want to spend attribute points on Strength rather than tactics, maybe I should just give up and put some more points into secondary profession... so depressing...

Anyway I really need a spammable spell so despite liking Flurry alot its just too short for me.

Shadow Devil · Oct 08, 2005, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Flurry's greates strength is the lack of weaknesses.

Frenzy double damage penalty is underrated at times, probably because if you have a good monk, you'll be healed quickly. But never forget that EVERY type of damage will hit you double, so its like walking around with half of your HP. if you have empathy, spitefull spirit and/or anything like that on you, keep in mind that you'll probably will lose 50+ HP every second if you keep using frenzy and attack like crazy. Armour ignoring skills like necro shadow, monk holy and certain earth skill damage, will kill you very quickly (bashing a smiting monk in melee, or a Dark Aura sacrificing build necro will kill you almost instantly, and they will target you if it gets noticed you are using freny).

Tiger fury is a great skill, it does however restricts you in using a ranger secondary spending some atribute points in beast mastery. Because all your non-attack skills are recharging half the time, managing your health and conditions becomes difficult. Also, non-attack adrenal skills lose all adrenaline when TF is used. In organized team fights, you will mostly be restricted in IWAY teams, because of lack of doing anything ells but one-sided melee damage.

The downside of flurry is obvious: you can't keep it up constantly like frenzy because time it lasts and the recharge time is equal, creating a small pauze between the attacks. The reduced damage will perhaps not reduce the total damage done (it even increases it) but the energy upkeep and the fact that you can't stack stances, wont always make using it worth the minor damage and adrenal increase it come for it. if you're going to use it, you will have to use it in a build (team build or single character build) that makes use if the main effect: you hit more then normally. using zealous/vampiric upgrades is one of them, but also making use of necro curses like mark of pain orbarbs, or enchantments like strength of honor or cunjure frozt/lighting/flame (not judges insight, % damage increases the same ammount on normal attack rate). But if you never seem to get below 50% health or never use your secondary and have 16 points of weapon mastary and 13 in strength, you might want to think about switching to tigers fury or frenzy.

id0l · Oct 08, 2005, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Devil

Actually, if you have a max zealous upgrade, you will get a 3 bonus every time you strike. With flurry, you are able to hit a max of 4 times, so +12 energy. (this is all according to my own memory, so I could be wrong)

Mmm...zealous gives you +1 energy on hit only. But don't let that fool ya into thinking it's crap (like 95% of players do). It's one of the best upgrades you can get. Common too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Devil

Flurry's greates strength is the lack of weaknesses.

Heh, I don't understand that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Devil

Tiger fury is a great skill, it does however restricts you in using a ranger primary spending some atribute points in beast mastery. Because all your non-attack skills are recharging half the time, managing your health and conditions becomes difficult. In organized team fights, you will mostly be restricted in IWAY teams, because of lack of doing anything ells but one-sided melee damage.

I think you meant ranger secondary? But yeah...TF wouldn't truly be ideal for a Warrior...or anything requiring you to use attack skills really (on a constant basis), because...well, you won't be able to use attack skills for 5 second durations at a time. Not good IMO. Plus, I don't like the idea in investing in a whole attribute line just for one skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Devil

The downside of flurry is obvious: you can't keep it up constantly like frenzy because time it lasts and the recharge time is equal, creating a small pauze between the attacks. The reduced damage will perhaps not reduce the total damage done (it even increases it) but the energy upkeep and the fact that you can't stack stances, wont always make using it worth the minor damage and adrenal increase it come for it.

The pause is virtually non-existant IF you have superior timing skills. Of course you can't always time it perfectly, so occasionally there is maybe a .1 second pause or so. I will have to respectfully disagree with you about the energy upkeep and 'minor damage increases,' as there are plenty of ways to even these things out. As mentioned, zealous will net you increased energy and a good weapon (+% > 50, +% in stance, +% enchant) that is customized will still yield great damage per-hit under Flurry. Myself, I use a 14% stance Chaos Axe with a zealous upgrade...and I'll tell ya, the ONLY time I run out of energy is in very hectic situations that require myself to be removing conditions constantly, or using healing breeze constantly (not very often at all).

Enough ranting...

I'll give you my personal example of why I use it:

Flurry to build up my Eviscerate/Executioners Strike/Penetrating Blow chain. Since I'm still getting more DOT than normal and increased adrenaline, I'm all for Flurry. Certain builds will most definatly differ. I definatly believe that it is intented for adrenaline-heavy builds...you can spike alot more often with 33% increased attack speed. And, even under Flurry with it's lessened damage, you still get the normal damage buffs from your attack skills (mine being +42 with Eviscerate at 16 axe, etc., etc.). Makes for an incredibly fast, hard hitting spike. =)

I also agree that Frenzy could be a better choice for PvP. It just always depends. Every skill in the game is so situational you just can't plan on what to use to maximum advantage - except in PvE, considering you know the area/enemies you will be fighting in/against well. Thus I use Flurry as my staple PvE skill.

IMO Frenzy in PvE is just dumb. PvP it is okay. I wouldn't hesitate to use Flurry in PvP, either, though...but I know alot of people would call me retarded for that. Oh well.

And yes I fully recommend a zealous upgrade for using Flurry...a vamp upgrade would be #2 in line to zealous (if say you don't use Flurry constantly in long battles, because energy would most likely become a problem).

Shadow Devil · Oct 08, 2005, 02:27 PM // 14:27

I was wrong about the zealous hammer haft. Because max vampiric hammer steals more then max sword/axe, I thought it would be the same with hammer. I still think it should!

What I meant with the 'lack of weaknesses' is extra added weaknesses. Like taking double damage or losing all non-attack skills. Its a skill with no real downside exept for the energy loss. If it wasn't for the energy loss you have to take in mind and that it uses a stance and skill slot, there would be no reason not to take it with you with almost every build.
But because it does, and the extra damage itself isn't enough reason to take it with you with every single no other stance using build.
I'm not saying that your whole energy upkeep rate will go down the drain if you plan on using flurry all the time, I'm just saying that you need energy that could be used for other skills in other builds (you can say that about every energy using skills) so if you plan to use a few other 10 energy using skills every 20 seconds, you might not want to spam an extra 5 energy using skill every 5 damage. Skills that cost to much energy in general is hardly every the case, since there are a lot of ways to manage energy.
I was trying to say that Flurry is a skill that must be used a certain way for it to be truely effective, so when you say that with zealous axe and adrenal skills that do damage independed of flurry reduced damage, you're agreeing with me, not respectfully disagreeing

BTW: I edited my post I corrected some of the mistakes you pointed out.

Nexx · Oct 10, 2005, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Sorry. I didn't bother to read the entire post. These were my thoughts as I skimmed through it :

Should I use FLURRY as an efficent andrenaline builder for a warrior?

For 5 mana in 5 seconds, you get 5.69 strikes (with Flurry) versus 3.76 strikes. The skill will net about 2 more strikes and 9.8 points of additional damage (assuming we use 20 as base damage). Damage appears to be negligible unless we factor in criticals but even then I doubt we'll get much difference in total damage dealt. So...

Is 5 mana worth 2 additional andrenaline?

Gaining 2 additional andrenaline point for 5 mana is hardily considered efficient but I think we need to look at the bigger picture and consider the design of our character to have a better understanding of how well FLURRY will work with it. I don't know the mana recharge rate for 2 energy pipes but from experience, the bare limit is 5 energy every 5~6 seconds suggesting that we can only spam one skill. I also read that a zealous sword could be used to increase energy output but the problem I see is that we're assuming we're hitting our target AND our target is not moving. Furthermore, the low mana recharge rate caused by zealous is going to severely hamper our skill selection (especially if we're running a lot of energy based attacks) limiting us to mostly andrenaline based attacks.

So what does all this mean?

Flurry is not bad as many people have made it out to be. Like many skills, Flurry has its place and is very dependent on the build. With no damage drawback (like Frenzy) and no recharge delay (For Greater Justice), Flurry is a cheap spammable attack speed skill. Andrenaline based attack builds should work well with Flurry because those builds are not energy intensive and allows for constant Flurry up time. But at 5 energy per shot for 5 seconds, energy heavy warrior builds might opt to choose Frenzy or another skill. (Then again, why use flurry or any other andrenaline builders when you're running energy based attack skills?) Flurry may have a role though to build up early andrenaline. I used to run a vanilla sword build that ran flurry to build up artery, gash and slash while running savage/pure strike for the occasional energy attack(s). It was relatively easy to use the energy based skills once andrenaline was built up for artery, gash and slash.

id0l · Oct 11, 2005, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Well, I would hope alot of people would bring a secondary weapon without a Zealous mod (as I do), for when they need regular energy regen. Same with vampiric mods...but I see, all too often, people only have their one weapon, with no secondary. Anet put in 4 slots for a reason.

You bring up valid points...as I have mentioned, Flurry is definatly meant for an adrenaline heavy build. Otherwise, I don't really think it would be worth the spot on the skillbar, as I've said. But with many Warrior attacks being adrenaline based, I see it is a good speed buff to bring vs. the competition. Keep in mind you dont always have to spam it, either.

I would also agree with you about it probably not being a good idea in a energy-dependant build. I could see it working, but not if you keep Flurry up constantly. That would be for us "adrenaline warriors."